Defence transcript/notes taken during interview of
SubO J Tiffen 23rd March 1999
Location: Lowestoft Fire Station ADO’s Office Time: 1400 hrs
Present:
DO. G. Smith (Assistant Investigating Officer)
ADO. E. Meelan (Brigade witness/note taker)
SubO. J. Tiffen (Accused)
SubO. A. Wigglesworth (Accused’s friend)
DO. G. Smith.
Gives a brief general outline of what he intends to do. To SubO Tiffen, "your accused friend can give you advice if he wants." "ADO Meelan is going to record the interview by hand." " I have been appointed to carry out this investigation by ACFO. Seager." "Are there any questions you would like to ask before we get started."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Yes I have got a few things to ask."
DO. G. Smith.
"Go on then."
SubO. A. Wiglesworth
"From pre-set questions (Doc 75). Can we see your letter of appointment as the assistant investigating officer?"
DO. G. Smith.
"Letter of appointment?" "You know who I am why do you want to see that?"
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"We would like to see the details on it?"
DO. G. Smith.
"Its not relevant to this interview and I have no intention of showing you it."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Well that’s not in keeping with the recommendation in these Discipline Seminar documents produced by Moreton for discipline investigators ahead of the introduction of the 85 regs is it?" Document passed to DO. G. Smith
DO. G. Smith.
"Hmm, where have you obtained these documents from?" "Look there is no need for me to show you my letter of appointment, you know who I am."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Your refusing?"
DO. G. Smith.
"No I am not refusing, there’s no requirement for me to." "It’s as simple as that"
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Oh I see." What about evidence then?" "Have you got any at this stage from which my colleague might be able to form the substance of the prosecution against him?"
DO. G. Smith.
"Look as to evidence that’s what were here for today." "Whatever evidence there might be will be given to you if this investigation results in charges being made." "And as to your use of the term prosecution this is an investigation and not a prosecution."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"And what about statements?" "Have you taken any in relation to this interview?"
DO. G. Smith.
"I don’t have tell you anything about what I have done to date." "So if you don’t mind I would like to put some questions to John."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Well if you have taken some statements we would like to see them so that SubO Tiffen can respond."
DO. G. Smith.
"No." "Statement or any other evidence will only be released if the investigation results in a charge."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
So you can’t provide any evidence other than the blanket form in the regulation 7 letter.
DO. G. Smith.
"I have told you before I am only the assistant investigator." "If you want more information you should speak to ACFO Seager."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"So what about the complainant. Can you tell us who that is?"
DO. G. Smith.
"I don’t know."
SubO A. Wigglesworth.
"Pardon." "Did you say you don’t know."
DO. G. Smith.
"The complainant is irrelevant anyway." " Look you have had your chance to ask questions." "I will not answer any about evidence." "So unless you have any to do with procedure I will now read out the caution to John and proceed with the interview." "Any other questions should be sent to ACFO Seager." "I am warning you not to obstruct me any further."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth. (Stopwatch started 0.00)
"Obstruct." We are trying to help you sir – to conduct a proper investigation."
DO. G. Smith.
"Huh!" "John I have been appointed by ACFO Seager to carry out an investigation into the circumstances of Ff Hyde's failure to revert to the rank of Firefighter when ordered to do so by ADO Saward." "I will read you a caution." – "Mr Wigglesworth why are you writing everything I say down?"
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"We would prefer our own record of what is said in the interview – right from the start." "We might want clarification of things you say or ask later on."
DO. G. Smith.
"I would prefer it if you leave the written recording of what we say to Mr Meelan – you won’t be able top keep up."
SubO. A. Wiglesworth.
"Keep up?" I will just use the same technique as Mr Meelan to keep up."
DO. G. Smith.
"Well there is no need to try and keep up – you will be given a copy of Mr Meelans record – do you want everything on the record?"
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
Absolutely, yes we want all that is discussed recorded.
DO. G. Smith.
"Hmm" (Looks to ADO Meelan and gives him a nod to start taking notes). "Right I will now read the caution.
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"Mr Meelan are you writing down everything?"
ADO. E. Meelan.
"I will start after the caution."
DO. G. Smith.
"The caution if you don’t mind."
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
"I would prefer it if all the asides and comments are in your record Mr Meelan."
Stopwatch at 04. 04.
DO. G. Smith.
Reads caution.
"You do not have to say anything, or answer any of the questions put to you at this interview unless you wish to do so, but what you say will be taken down in writing and may be used in a subsequent disciplinary hearing." "Do you understand the caution?"
Reading of caution takes 29 seconds.
"Do you understand?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"Yes I understand."
DO. G. Smith
"All the questions I am going to ask you surround the reversion of Firefighter Hyde to Firefighter on 1st February 1999 – Did you see a copy of the memo from ADO Fuller made in September 1998?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
Stopwatch at 06. 37.
DO. G. Smith.
"I will now show you the memo to which I refer and ask you if you have seen it?" DO. G. Smith shows SubO. J. Tiffen the memo (Doc 2)
Sub O. J. Tiffen and SubO. A. Wigglesworth notify DO. G. Smith that they wish to discuss the matter in private and vacate the ADO’s office for approximately two minutes. The stopwatch is put on hold. They then discuss the interviewers strategy which they conclude to be an attempt at division and a blame game. It is decided to continue with a strategy of no comment until DO. G. Smith co-operates and demonstrates goodwill by the production of credible evidence. SubO. J. Tiffen states he is appalled by DO. G. Smith’s
"arrogant attitude and complete and utter disregard for the fact that the order for T/Lf Hyde to revert was unlawful and one he could not support." As he says, "I would not trust him as far as I could throw him********************************** etc."
Sub O. J. Tiffen and SubO. A. Wigglesworth return to the ADO’s office. The stopwatch is restarted.
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"What length of time was Leading Firefighter Brown meant to be off on sick leave when the memo was written?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No Comment."
DO. G. Smith.
"Can I take it that at this stage that you intend to reply no comment to all the questions I ask you?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment."
DO. G. Smith.
"Hmmm – ER do you believe it is – errr is it your opinion it is reasonable for sickness cover, such as for Leading Firefighter Brown’s to be reviewed after four months?"
SubO. A. Wigglesworth.
Laughs out. "What sort of question is that?
DO. G. Smith
Threatening scowl and general expansion of facial features.
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
Stopwatch reading 11. 51.
DO. G. Smith.
"When were you first aware that Firefighter Hyde would be reverting back to Firefighter?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"Did you receive a copy of the memorandum dated the 20th January?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"Have you seen it?" Copy passed to SubO. J. Tiffen.
Stopwatch at 13. 35.
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith
"Did Firefighter Hyde revert to the rank of Firefighter on the 1st of February?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
Doc 76 Continued Beginning of this event starts at Doc 75/74.
DO. G. Smith.
"Subsequent question not asked – can you strike it Mr Meelan." Turns back to SubO. J. Tiffen. "Were you in contact with anybody to clarify the instructions that Firefighter Hyde should revert to firefighter on 4th February?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"Did you follow the instructions given to you by ADO Saward with regard to the reversion?"
Stopwatch reading 15. 00.
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
By now getting quite irritated and glowing aggression. "Did Hyde remove his rank markings on the 4th February 1999?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith
"Did Hyde put his rank markings back on the 4th to 5th February on night shift?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"Did Firefighter Hyde give you an account to his decision to wear his rank markings, following instructions by you to remove them?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
"During the course of the 4th and 5th did you make any inquiries on yours and Firefighter Hydes actions?"
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
DO. G. Smith.
Is there anything else you wish to say in regard to this investigation.
SubO. J. Tiffen.
"No comment"
Stopwatch reads 19. 46.
SubO. J. Tiffen & SubO. A. Wigglesworth exit the Lowestoft ADO’s office and discuss the contents of the interview with the co accused in the Lowestoft TV room with the rest of the watch present. This discussion goes on for a good 10 minutes before it is interupted by a jovial and smirking ADO. E. Meelan with a cheap (manikin- henri wintermans?) lit cigar between his fingers. Looking at Y and SubO X he says, "Were ready for you - well if you'll just give me 5 minutes to finish this."